Posts Tagged ‘Christobal Torriente’

My Own Little Hall of Fame: Class of 1934

December 8, 2016

After a couple of years I bring this project to a conclusion. How successful it was is up to the people who read it. Be kind, team. Here it is the final class. A few trumpets and drums please (OK, a lot of trumpets and drums).

Ty Cobb

Ty Cobb

Ty Cobb is Major League Baseball’s all time leader in average, hits, stolen bases, and runs. He is second in both doubles and triples. While with Detroit he won 12 batting titles, four RBI titles, and a home run title. He led his team to three consecutive American League pennants and won the 1911 Chalmers Award.

Urban Shocker

Urban Shocker

Stalwart pitcher of two pennant contenders, Urban Shocker first led the St. Louis American League team to respectability, then led the New York Yankees to two pennants and a World Series title before his untimely death.

Tris Speaker

Tris Speaker

Tris Speaker played center field for both Boston and Cleveland in the American League. With Boston he won the 1912 Chalmers Award while leading his team to a World Series Championship. He won a second championship with Boston then as player-manager of Cleveland won the 1920 World Series. He is the all time leader in doubles and second in total hits.

Christobal Torriente

Christobal Torriente

Negro League outfielder Christobal Torriente played 15 years for both Cuban and American teams. While with the American Giants his team won three Negro National League pennants.

The commentary:

1. I don’t suppose I need to say much about either Cobb or Speaker. They are the kinds of players that a Hall of Fame is made to showcase. A couple of quick comments are in order. First, the records of the time show Cobb winning the 1912 batting title so I went with that rather than the newer information that indicates Nap LaJoie might be the true winner. Also the stolen base number is a little shaky, but everyone is in agreement that Cobb has the most since the change of definition in the late 1890s. I don’t think Speaker gets enough credit for his managerial stint, so I wanted to make a point of mentioning it.

2. Shocker is something of a stretch, but he was generally regarded as a first line pitcher and there was a lot of ink about his dying early (the same sort of thing that happened with Addie Joss). Frankly, I think he should be in Cooperstown, so I took the opportunity to add him.

3. Which brings me to Torriente. There is some question about his last season. He is well documented (at least for a Negro League player) through a 1928 retirement. Then he comes back for a short spell in 1932. I decided that as Negro League careers were much more in flux than white players, that I would ignore the 1932 period and let him in as the first and only Cuban everyday player.

4. If this project went on into 1935, these would be the names showing up among everyday players: George Burns, Max Carey, Cupid Childs, Jake Daubert, Johnny Evers, Jack Fornier, Larry Gardner, Heinie Groh, Baby Doll Jacobson, Tommy Leach, Herman Long, Bobby Lowe, Tommy McCarthy, Stuffy McInnis, Clyde Milan, Johnny Mostil, Ray Schalk, Wildfire Schulte, Cy Seymour, Billy Southworth, Roy Thomas, Mike Tiernan, George Van Haltren, Ken Williams, Ross Youngs.

5. With the same proviso, the pitchers: Babe Adams, Chief Bender, Jack Chesbro, Wilbur Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Sam Leever, Rube Marquard, Carl Mays, Art Nehf, Deacon Phillippe, Jesse Tannehill, Doc White.

6. With the same proviso, the contributors: umpires-Bob Emslie, Tim Hurst; owners-Charles Ebbets, August Herrmann; Negro Leagues-Pete Hill, Oliver Marcell, Dobie Moore, Spottswood Poles, Ben Taylor; and pioneer William R. Wheaton.

7. I’m not doing 1935, but my best guess is that Max Carey, who had the record for most stolen bases in the National League (modern definition) in 1935 would make it. I’m not sure about any other everyday players. Among pitchers Coveleski would be, and I’m guessing here, the one with the best change of getting in. And I’d guess Oliver Marcell as the top choice among contributors. The only one I’d bet on would be Carey.

8. I’m going to do a wrap up later that will address questions some of you probably have, some I certainly have, and look at what I found out in doing this project.

9. I am sorry that I’m going to miss guys like Babe Ruth and John Henry Lloyd, but it’s up to Cooperstown to fix that when they vote in 1936. I’m banking on Ruth making it quickly, but don’t hold your breath over Lloyd.

 

 

 

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My Best Negro League Roster

February 28, 2011

A friend of mine who reads this blog called me up the other day. He suggested I post what was, in my opinion, the best Negro League team. I went into a long discourse about why that wasn’t possible because of lack of stats and collaborating info and anything else I could come up with to get out of it. He finally cut me off with a simple, “Wing it.” So for the edification of anyone who happens to run across this, and to cap a long group of Negro League posts, here’s my list of the best Negro League players, with appropriate caveats (You knew those were coming, didn’t you?).

First, I took only guys who played the majority of their careers in the Negro Leagues. In other words guys like Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby were out, as were Hank Aaron and Ernie Banks. Second, I did a 25 man roster with a manager and an owner, and a couple of special add ons. I included 2 players at each infield position, 6 outfielders, 3 catchers, and 8 pitchers (at least two of which had to be left-handed). I know that almost no Negro League team ever actually had 25 men on its roster and that if they did they weren’t aligned as I’ve aligned my team. But this is the way I wanted to do it. I have an aversion to comparing players in the pre-mound era with those whose career is mostly after the advent of the mound and the 60’6″ pitching distance.  I simply think the game is so different you can’t compare players (feel free to disagree). That led to a real problem for me, Frank Grant. I think he is probably one of the half-dozen or so greatest black players ever, but that’s unquantifiable to me. So I had to leave him out, and wish I didn’t.

So here we go. All players are listed alphabetically by position. That means there is no indication that I think the guy listed first is better, although he may be a lot better. Don’t expect a lot of surprises, and keep the snickers to yourselves.

Catcher: Josh Gibson, Biz Mackey, Louis Santop. This was actually pretty easy. There seems to be a consensus between statheads, historians, and old Negro League players that these three were head and shoulders above the other catchers in Negro League play. Fleet Walker was also a catcher, but I don’t think he was the quality of these three and he also fails to meet the post-mound criteria. Sorry, Fleet.

1st Base: Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles. There were two problems here. The first was the necessity of leaving out Buck O’Neill. I don’t suppose there is a more important Negro Leaguer (except for Jackie Robinson), but the information on him makes it evident that he wasn’t really at the top of the line of Negro League first basemen. The second problem is that Mule Suttles spent a lot of time in the outfield. But it was common for Negro League players to do “double duty” in the field, so Suttles at first isn’t actually a bad idea.

2nd Base: Newt Allen, Bingo DeMoss. I think I had more trouble settling on the second basemen than on any other position (OK, maybe pitcher). First, I wanted to put Grant in, but just couldn’t because of the problems mentioned above. I also think it might be the weakest position in Negro League play. The list of truly great players here is awfully short. I think these two are probably the best, but I could be talked into someone else.

3rd Base: Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson. Again an easy pick. There seems to be universal agreement that Dandridge was a fielder unlike any other in the history of the Negro Leagues, and that Johnson could outhit anyone who played the position. Who am I to argue with universal agreement?

Shortstop: John Henry Lloyd, Willie Wells. Lloyd was an easy pick. If Honus Wagner, the greatest shortstop who ever shortstopped, says he’s pleased to be compared with Lloyd, I’m gonna take him at his word. Wells was also pretty easy. Again there seems to be a consensus among the sources that he was a terrific shortstop.

Outfield: Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Oscar Charleston, Martin DiHigo, Turkey Stearnes, Christobal Torriente. First, I didn’t worry about getting two each Right, Center, and Left. I ended up with two Right Fielders (Brown, DiHigo), one in Left (Stearnes), and the rest are Center Fielders. One of the things about studying and researching for this list is how quickly you find out Bell is seriously overrated. Now I don’t mean to imply Bell wasn’t a heck of a ballplayer; he was. He may have been the very best Negro League outfielder ever. But there seems to be this idea that he was just head and shoulders above the others (Charleston and Torriente). From what I read, I just don’t see that. Maybe he was better, but if so not by much. Certainly he wasn’t better by the amount a lot of people seem to want to think. It reminds me of what I call the “Derek Jeter Aura”. Is Jeter the best shortstop who started his career in the last 15 or so years? Yes. Is he the  greatest since the position was invented (as some would have us believe)?  Not even close, but try telling that to legions of his fans. And Bell seems to be running through that same situation. Personally, I think Charleston was better (and again that’s a personal opinion, not bolstered by much in the way of facts) and I’m not sure that DiHigo wasn’t the finest Negro League outfielder of the lot (or maybe he wasn’t, it’s tough to tell). I am fairly sure that DiHigo is the most under appreciated of the lot.

Pitcher: Ray Brown, Andy Cooper, Leon Day, Bill Foster, Luis Mendez, Satchel Paige, Joe Rogan, Hilton Smith. This may have been the hardest of the lists to determine. First, there aren’t a lot of really good left-handed pitchers in the Negro Leagues, so finding two (and one-quarter of the list being left-handed didn’t seem unreasonable) became a pain. Next, there were more than six righty’s that had to be considered. I hated to leave any off, but this list is my best guess.

Manager: Rube Foster. OK, he had to be here somewhere. He seems to have been a better pitcher than manager and a better manager than executive, but the founder of the Negro Leagues ought to be here.

Owner:  Cum Posey. I said that both second and pitching caused me the most problem. That’s true of players, but finding the best owner to put on the team was almost a nightmare. Who do you take? J.L. Wilkinson owned the most famous team (the Monarchs), Effa Manley of Newark was probably the most famous owner, Gus Greenlee owned the best team (the Crawfords). I looked at all of them and chose Posey, the man who owned the Grays. I think the Grays were the most consistantly successful team in the late 1930s and throughout the 1940s. I decided that made Posey the owner.

One of a kind: Double Duty Radcliffe. Radcliffe was known to pitch one game of a double-header, then catch the other game. You have to be kidding me. 

Post Negro League Career: Charley Pride. One of the great things about being married to my wife is that every morning I get to “Kiss an Angel Good Morning.” Now I may be wrong about this, but “Just Between You and Me,” as far as I can tell, Pride had the best non-sports related career of any Negro Leaguer.

A Charley Pride baseball card

The musical information shown here tells me this card is a fake, but I just couldn’t resist putting it up for show and tell.

Here’s hoping you’ve learned something from this sojourn into the Negro Leagues and black baseball in general. Failing that, I hope you enjoyed them. With the end of Black History Month, I’ll think I’ll take up something else.